hybrids

[niittaaja]

first of all congrats for m'uru kill!

hello im new to this forums so forgive me if i post a thread about something that has allready been disgussed.

i want to know how do u feel about the hybrid classes (especcially elemental/moonkin)?
i have seen that u guys use both in raids even progress ones so ur opinion is important cause u have atleast
some experience with them.
the usual feedback i get from any other forum is that they suck period. and well these kind of comments from ppl that have never seen a hybrid in action (atleast not a good one), even though they are HC doesnt feel like the answer i want/need...cause atleast i want to know why they suck.

i have to admit that im some sort of a addict to proving hybrids or just any class that ppl generally think sucks, doesnt...atleast if u play it right. (used to play protpaladin and shadowpriest)

so im thinking about gearing a elemental shaman, the one that beat everyones ass at T4 gear :)
but i allso want to know about high end...since ive heard rumours that elementals doesnt scale as well as some other classes (it doesnt have to mean that they suck though).

alltogether i want to know what do u guys think about elementals (and oomkins allso) what do they give to the raid? are they viable enough to take someone elses spot (vs puredps ) what are the best aspects of elemental and what are the downsides? why should any gm bring them to raid (besides them being the gm's gf...kidding)

any answers are appreciated (dont know if i spelled that right)
but ofc i would like to hear from exodus members, since u guys killed m'uru with elemental ;)

[Dyz]

I think its more that they do good dps and they bring pretty good buffs to the group. 3% hit from a oomkin is pretty nice and hes not that far behind in dps.

Take his dps + the dps he adds to the raid and hes more than viable to take up 1 slot.

[Ossuary]

Same thing with the ele shammy and his Totem for his group, the enhance shammy and his AP buff for group, Retdin and his 3% raid wide crit, the feral and the 5% crit for group.

[Dominazn]

YES I AM VIABLE TO TAKE UP A RAID SPOT ^_^

[Chritina]

the extra utility from hybrid classes is definately worth it to maximize raid dps

ele shamans do a crap load of dps for hybrid classes, theres no way i can come close to dom's dps

[niittaaja]

i know all the buffs and debuffs that those classes can do, but i want to hear is it worth it...with explanation.
in my old guild we used one ret and encha for the raid damage buffs they provide (and they were actually really nice dps on their own) but like with elemental its really hard to give them a raid spot over (for example resto shaman) all we elementals have to give is the +3% to crit on wrath (honestly who gimps hit at T6?)
what i do not know is how elementals do in damage. so to make it simple if we are good at high end, the crappy raid buff doesnt matter cause we would still be viable, but if we arent...then resto+encha are alot better for raidbuffs and pure dps class for dps.
dont get me wrong in my raid theres atleast one protpally,one encha, one elem, one moonkin and lots of spriests. i just want some sort of evidence that we are viable.

[Dominazn]

it's not a crappy raid buff, 3% crit and hit is amazing, especially when trying to mix in new haste gear. having to get the right numbers of haste hit and crit are made easier with my totem. some fights we're limited on healers and wanna bring other healers over resto shamans for single target healing, but we still want the buffs of a shaman. i can take up a dps spot, bring what a resto shaman would, plus totem of wrath. stacking resto shamans is usually a good idea, but not always necessary. Your dps added to that is enough for you to take up a raid spot, unless you suck ass :D

[Shibou]

too bad resto shm are fucking op

[niittaaja]

heh i own, and thanks for the explanation.
i still want to ask few questions on the matter though.
so whats ur normal raid setup? we have used 2 caster/randged groups both with shaman healer so its 8 casters/ranged total.
atleast 1 mage(usually 2), 2 shadowpriests (sometimes even 3), 2-3destrolocks, and 2 hunters.
so its usually 8 ranged+7healers+3-4tanks+6-7 melee.
i find it hard to fit me as elemental in there. wich ranged would u change to a elemental? in a typical T6 raid.

[Dominazn]

we dont put hunters in caster groups, theyre usually in g5 with healers that give them no benefit whatsoever, cuz we hate hunters. and im being serious too rofl

[Dominazn]

but tbh, resto shaman are op, they bring imp mana spring and mana tide, which is why sometimes i still go back to resto.

[niittaaja]

we dont put hunters in caster groups, theyre usually in g5 with healers that give them no benefit whatsoever, cuz we hate hunters. and im being serious too rofl

well bms group buff is pretty nice and our bm hunter is one of our top dps. surv buff is better, though they dont make as much dps... and well we did insane amount of dps so we needed the MD's ;)

[Dominazn]

we compensate by having our MT sustain some insane TPS

[Dyz]

Year Kaywarrior and the other tanks have some of the highest TPS i have seen. Most of the time i dont need to vanish to dump threat.

Also, some of the "hybrids" still arent that amazing for thier "group buff". IE: druid's 5% melee crit doesnt really make it worth bringing a "DPS" druid and putting it in the melee group because his group buff + his dps will not outdo another rogue. The same is almost true for a paladin except i dont believe they need to be in the melee group to give the melee the buff (This is the only guild i have raided with that use a retadin, so not 100% on it, but in most situations a retadin can still pump decent dps while in the melee group, but wont put out 2200-2700dps like a rogue).

Its all about bringing the hybrids and using them in the right group makeup to maximize both thier dps and the benefit for the raid.

[Rakashtan]

my last group on my hunter was 2 holy/disc priests a holy paladin and a resto druid... true story

[nitto]

ooya i have seen over 2k+ i think you are comparing ret dps to candy and he wasnt that great

[niittaaja]

Year Kaywarrior and the other tanks have some of the highest TPS i have seen. Most of the time i dont need to vanish to dump threat.

Also, some of the "hybrids" still arent that amazing for thier "group buff". IE: druid's 5% melee crit doesnt really make it worth bringing a "DPS" druid and putting it in the melee group because his group buff + his dps will not outdo another rogue. The same is almost true for a paladin except i dont believe they need to be in the melee group to give the melee the buff (This is the only guild i have raided with that use a retadin, so not 100% on it, but in most situations a retadin can still pump decent dps while in the melee group, but wont put out 2200-2700dps like a rogue).

Its all about bringing the hybrids and using them in the right group makeup to maximize both thier dps and the benefit for the raid.

its not about ret doing any good for the melee group (2% more damage aint that good of a buff) they need to be in melee group cause of wf totem. wf totem helps retri dps alot, and the reason to bring a retripaladin is cause they can refres judgements so light, wisdom and crusader on all the time...and ofc retri brings imp crusader wich gives the whole raid +crit on the target. (a tankadin can bring that allso, though id pref both :) )

[niittaaja]

my last group on my hunter was 2 holy/disc priests a holy paladin and a resto druid... true story

:(

i do love hunters and they should get a good group allso :) we usually have our bm hunter with 2destros, one healing shammy and a spriest, so atleast mana aint a problem for him...and hes allways on top of the meters with our best destro and rogue.

[Koosha]

:(

i do love hunters and they should get a good group allso :) we usually have our bm hunter with 2destros, one healing shammy and a spriest, so atleast mana aint a problem for him...and hes allways on top of the meters with our best destro and rogue.

Thats because your DPS is bad, that is an awful group for a hunter as they don't have mana problems with JoW up (at least they didn't when using Black Bow, idk about now)

[Dyz]

No, i meant ret paladin doesnt do enough dps to warrant being in the melee group over a rogue/warrior who pumps out way more dps with WF as opposed to a shaman or retadin. If you have the room obviously the ret is going to be in the melee group.

[Xtqh]

i want to hear is it worth it
[X] Yes
[ ] No
...with explanation.
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9405/blastoiseub8.jpg

[niittaaja]

Thats because your DPS is bad, that is an awful group for a hunter as they don't have mana problems with JoW up (at least they didn't when using Black Bow, idk about now)

naah its cause hes a pro (he really is) not too often u see a hunter who does over 2k damage allmost anywhere.
and well i really dont know about hunters mana issues but atlest with our group he can use haste pots for example...

[niittaaja]

No, i meant ret paladin doesnt do enough dps to warrant being in the melee group over a rogue/warrior who pumps out way more dps with WF as opposed to a shaman or retadin. If you have the room obviously the ret is going to be in the melee group.

ah got it...well thats just the case...since we didnt have that many melee so there was a spot for a ret.
though im pretty sure that they are viable trough buffind raid dps.

[Koosha]

Thank you for your anecdotal reference that has no bearing on legitimate DPS potential.

[niittaaja]

sorry if i wasnt clear enough.
since i dont have acces to my old guilds wws stats i cannot post any real evidence, but from what i saw our ret paladin did fine on his own in damage. few times i saw him on top 3 but mostly he was somewhere between 7 and 4.
our melee classes were mostly 2 rogues, 1 fury,1 arms,1encha, and ret. and if there was 7 the last spot was for a rogue or fury.
our top dps was mostly rogue,bmhunter,destro.

and well even though our ret did fine in our meters, it doesnt mean our total dps sucked, he was just really good at what he did. and overall i think our dps was the best aspect of our guild, tanks were fine healers were ok but dps was over the top.( ill post some evidence if i get my hands to our old wws logs)

so if a ret paladin does well in dps on his own, does the buffs/debuffs he provide make him viable/even worth a melee spot over a rogue?

Im sure it does. what about you guys?

[darigaaz]

sorry if i wasnt clear enough.
since i dont have acces to my old guilds wws stats i cannot post any real evidence, but from what i saw our ret paladin did fine on his own in damage. few times i saw him on top 3 but mostly he was somewhere between 7 and 4.
our melee classes were mostly 2 rogues, 1 fury,1 arms,1encha, and ret. and if there was 7 the last spot was for a rogue or fury.
our top dps was mostly rogue,bmhunter,destro.

and well even though our ret did fine in our meters, it doesnt mean our total dps sucked, he was just really good at what he did. and overall i think our dps was the best aspect of our guild, tanks were fine healers were ok but dps was over the top.( ill post some evidence if i get my hands to our old wws logs)

so if a ret paladin does well in dps on his own, does the buffs/debuffs he provide make him viable/even worth a melee spot over a rogue?

Im sure it does. what about you guys?

I think you are missing the point, many people have already stated that

1. Yes, it does help having a ret paladin in the raid, because it provides a raid wide buff, and keep ups judgements on the target which can be very helpful.

2. No, it's not worth it to keep the ret paladin in the WF groups, or the "melee stacked" groups with feral druids for imp LOTP, DPS warrior BS, and such, unless there is no other melee dps to stick in that group. The reason is simply because the extra damage the ret paladin gets from those buffs, does not compare well against a DPS warrior or rogue. So the ret paladins sometimes gets shafted and ends up in a non optimal group.

3. This is not the case for the caster oriented "hybrid classes", as ele shaman, shadow priest, boomkins all provide great buffs to their groups, which makes it so that you would wanna make groups with those classes together, along with warlocks/mages.
In general though, caster dps has never scaled as well as melee dps, so no, in a truely competent dps race, the ele shaman and the boomkin may not beat the warlock/mage/rogue (aka the "pure dps" classes that you refered to), however, the additional damage they provide the group/the raid easily makes up for that deficit.

[KAYWARRIOR]

This would be our usual raid make up for a brutallus kill

Group1:
prot warrior
feral druid
holy pally
resto shaman
resto druid

Group2:
2 rogues
dps warrior
ret pally
enhance shaman

Group3:
ele shaman
warlock
mage
balance druid
shadow priest

Group4
warlock
mage
shadow priest
resto shaman
holy pally

Group5
holy priest
holy priest
hunter*
warlock
hunter*

*one of which is survival

We would normally have say that warlock in group 4 and not 5 for the benefits but we make sure our pallys have a resto sham + shadow priest or at LEAST a resto sham for brut so they can free spam.

And to answer your question, the way you fit a ele shaman and balance druid into your raids is by giving them none other then mage, warlock and of course hunter spots.

Our hunters all do really good damage when BM spec'd and with an ideal group, however in my personal opinion giving a hunter an ideal group is a waste of a few classes (for instance they want like an enhance shaman + feral druid, which would totally benefit a melee group more, and honestly I've never brought more then one enhance shaman and feral druid to anything other than M'uru - where we use 2 melee groups anyways.

[Dyz]

I think you are missing the point, many people have already stated that

1. Yes, it does help having a ret paladin in the raid, because it provides a raid wide buff, and keep ups judgements on the target which can be very helpful.

2. No, it's not worth it to keep the ret paladin in the WF groups, or the "melee stacked" groups with feral druids for imp LOTP, DPS warrior BS, and such, unless there is no other melee dps to stick in that group. The reason is simply because the extra damage the ret paladin gets from those buffs, does not compare well against a DPS warrior or rogue. So the ret paladins sometimes gets shafted and ends up in a non optimal group.

3. This is not the case for the caster oriented "hybrid classes", as ele shaman, shadow priest, boomkins all provide great buffs to their groups, which makes it so that you would wanna make groups with those classes together, along with warlocks/mages.
In general though, caster dps has never scaled as well as melee dps, so no, in a truely competent dps race, the ele shaman and the boomkin may not beat the warlock/mage/rogue (aka the "pure dps" classes that you refered to), however, the additional damage they provide the group/the raid easily makes up for that deficit.

thanx for being better at engrish class than me Dari. <3

[niittaaja]

This would be our usual raid make up for a brutallus kill

Group1:
prot warrior
feral druid
holy pally
resto shaman
resto druid

Group2:
2 rogues
dps warrior
ret pally
enhance shaman

Group3:
ele shaman
warlock
mage
balance druid
shadow priest

Group4
warlock
mage
shadow priest
resto shaman
holy pally

Group5
holy priest
holy priest
hunter*
warlock
hunter*

[/U]

well our raid setups differs alot.
groups were something like this (not 100% sure though...havent raided for a month)

G1
prot warrior
prot warrior
feral tank
dps warrior
survhunter

G2
feral tank (this one will dps more than the druid on G1)
ret pally
encha shaman
rogue
dps warrior (or rogue)

G3
resto shaman
mage
destro warlock
shadow priest
destro warlock

G4
resto shaman
mage
shadowpriest
destro warlock
BM hunter

G5
holy pally
holy pally
holy pally
resto druid
holy priest

so the one thing that we can immediatelly see, is that we like our dps so they get all the benefit from shamans and shadowpriests .at the same time resto+shadowpriest lets the shaman to spam heals and they are mostly on top of the healing meters. ofc we change our groups for different kind of fights, but this is close to the normal setup.
i know that this prob has to be changed at least for fights like brutallus where the tank gets some heavy hits.
so paladins will need all the help they can to keep MT alive.
but as u notice in our old guilds normal raid setup there isnt much space for elemental or a boomkin, we have alot of melee, at least compared to ur setup. and we use 4 tanks sometimes 3... and we rarely change that for a boss encounter (except illidan and archimonde)
so most likely if we would have taken elem or a boomkin we would have taken melee spots and allso had to change the whole setup cause of that.

i thank you for ur answers this has given me lot to think about.

[niittaaja]

I think you are missing the point, many people have already stated that

1. Yes, it does help having a ret paladin in the raid, because it provides a raid wide buff, and keep ups judgements on the target which can be very helpful.

2. No, it's not worth it to keep the ret paladin in the WF groups, or the "melee stacked" groups with feral druids for imp LOTP, DPS warrior BS, and such, unless there is no other melee dps to stick in that group. The reason is simply because the extra damage the ret paladin gets from those buffs, does not compare well against a DPS warrior or rogue. So the ret paladins sometimes gets shafted and ends up in a non optimal group.

3. This is not the case for the caster oriented "hybrid classes", as ele shaman, shadow priest, boomkins all provide great buffs to their groups, which makes it so that you would wanna make groups with those classes together, along with warlocks/mages.
In general though, caster dps has never scaled as well as melee dps, so no, in a truely competent dps race, the ele shaman and the boomkin may not beat the warlock/mage/rogue (aka the "pure dps" classes that you refered to), however, the additional damage they provide the group/the raid easily makes up for that deficit.

maybe its just because ppl doesnt understand "hidden" damage, so that if a ret paladin doesnt do damage on its own he doesnt get a spot in the raid :D! kidding

most raids we could change ret paladins spot with a dps warrior or a hunter. havent done so sofar though.

one thing i have noticed is that ret paladins personal dps jumps up ALOT with WF (dont know the percentage) but its really high...would like to know the difference between different classes dps boost with wf. i know the raid propably gets more dps from a warrior or rogue with WF.
but i would still like to know.